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	<title>Comments on: US vs. THEM&#8230;or flogging a dead horse</title>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://www.robertwrightphoto.com/writing/photography/us-vs-them/comment-page-1/#comment-2375</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Dec 2007 04:06:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robertwrightphoto.com/writing/?p=118#comment-2375</guid>
		<description>mike-are you in still-life?
If you can earn two thirds of 3000 per invoice then I think you are. Or you are shooting five days and not moving around too much:) Or you are doing what I think should be done that I mention in the next post, billing equipment out at the going rate for rentals. Care to elaborate?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>mike-are you in still-life?<br />
If you can earn two thirds of 3000 per invoice then I think you are. Or you are shooting five days and not moving around too much:) Or you are doing what I think should be done that I mention in the next post, billing equipment out at the going rate for rentals. Care to elaborate?</p>
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		<title>By: mike</title>
		<link>http://www.robertwrightphoto.com/writing/photography/us-vs-them/comment-page-1/#comment-2374</link>
		<dc:creator>mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Dec 2007 03:56:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robertwrightphoto.com/writing/?p=118#comment-2374</guid>
		<description>That is crazy talk. The only way I can afford to shoot editorial is by owning my equipment. And retouching. And contacting, exc. The smallest invoice I send out is 2k with the average being slightly north of 3k and I can realize more than 65% of all my invoices. If you are too busy to do the things above then you are killing it and don&#039;t need to worry because volume covers outsourcing but if not, like most people I know, you can make an editorial living. And it is fun. I still like photography and am happy to say so. I believe that with planning we all can as long as your work is competitive and you really understand where the system is built to squeeze.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That is crazy talk. The only way I can afford to shoot editorial is by owning my equipment. And retouching. And contacting, exc. The smallest invoice I send out is 2k with the average being slightly north of 3k and I can realize more than 65% of all my invoices. If you are too busy to do the things above then you are killing it and don&#8217;t need to worry because volume covers outsourcing but if not, like most people I know, you can make an editorial living. And it is fun. I still like photography and am happy to say so. I believe that with planning we all can as long as your work is competitive and you really understand where the system is built to squeeze.</p>
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		<title>By: Daeja</title>
		<link>http://www.robertwrightphoto.com/writing/photography/us-vs-them/comment-page-1/#comment-2367</link>
		<dc:creator>Daeja</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Dec 2007 22:45:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robertwrightphoto.com/writing/?p=118#comment-2367</guid>
		<description>I like your picture Robert! 

Reading through the post and all of the comments I see that so many of you have so much more  experience than I... so I have to ask... I do often get the opportunity to shoot editorial.  I assist, I do production assisting, I accept anything that I believe at the time will benefit my photography. It has worked in some cases, in may it has not. I think though, I have always learned. 

Editorial seems to be another monster in itself. I see how it can be a privilege though. It can give you a lot of freedom to show what you love to shoot.... Here is the dilema:

I am asked to shoot an editorial. Cool. I am excited. So I agree... She says she has NO photography budget. I tell her that we need money for permits and a small location fee, that if she wants the 10 shots she asked for I have to pay an assistant and a make up artist. She tells me she has ABSOLUTELY NO budget... but I can shoot what I want, how I want, with the model I want... 

So I have this idea. I also have a friend that is an accomplished wardrobe stylist visiting who says she wouldn&#039;t mind helping me out cause she could use some new stuff in her book so I say o.k. and call in favors from everyone I know.  

Then the editor calls and says well you can shoot this idea you have but you have to use my advertisers. I will have them fed ex you boxes of clothes. The day before the shoot 3 large fed ex parcel boxes show up. Nothing in any of the boxes contain anything that is remotely cohesive to what where and how I will be shooting. So I call her back and say that there is nothing useable in the boxes. She tells me I can suppliment the shoot with wnatever I want.... but it has to be from her advertisers. So my friend the wardrobe stylist and I call in favors... We go to show rooms, we call friends that work for clothing companies, we drive about 150 miles back and forth from location to location looking for clothing from her &quot;advertisers.&quot;

We get what we can although it is a strech from what we had asked for and what the original idea was we make it work and we shoot.

Here is the clincher for me.... Her &quot;advertisers&quot; are  clients that I would like to have. Her magazine is delivered directly to their offices and dropped right down on art director&#039;s desks. 

So in the end we have this editorial. There is a little of me in it, there is a lot of compromise and there were a lot of unpaid hours and favors. Is the fact that this magazine with this 10 page editorial will wind up directly in the hands of who I want to see my work worth it? Or will it just be another piece of junk they flip into the garbage can?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like your picture Robert! </p>
<p>Reading through the post and all of the comments I see that so many of you have so much more  experience than I&#8230; so I have to ask&#8230; I do often get the opportunity to shoot editorial.  I assist, I do production assisting, I accept anything that I believe at the time will benefit my photography. It has worked in some cases, in may it has not. I think though, I have always learned. </p>
<p>Editorial seems to be another monster in itself. I see how it can be a privilege though. It can give you a lot of freedom to show what you love to shoot&#8230;. Here is the dilema:</p>
<p>I am asked to shoot an editorial. Cool. I am excited. So I agree&#8230; She says she has NO photography budget. I tell her that we need money for permits and a small location fee, that if she wants the 10 shots she asked for I have to pay an assistant and a make up artist. She tells me she has ABSOLUTELY NO budget&#8230; but I can shoot what I want, how I want, with the model I want&#8230; </p>
<p>So I have this idea. I also have a friend that is an accomplished wardrobe stylist visiting who says she wouldn&#8217;t mind helping me out cause she could use some new stuff in her book so I say o.k. and call in favors from everyone I know.  </p>
<p>Then the editor calls and says well you can shoot this idea you have but you have to use my advertisers. I will have them fed ex you boxes of clothes. The day before the shoot 3 large fed ex parcel boxes show up. Nothing in any of the boxes contain anything that is remotely cohesive to what where and how I will be shooting. So I call her back and say that there is nothing useable in the boxes. She tells me I can suppliment the shoot with wnatever I want&#8230;. but it has to be from her advertisers. So my friend the wardrobe stylist and I call in favors&#8230; We go to show rooms, we call friends that work for clothing companies, we drive about 150 miles back and forth from location to location looking for clothing from her &#8220;advertisers.&#8221;</p>
<p>We get what we can although it is a strech from what we had asked for and what the original idea was we make it work and we shoot.</p>
<p>Here is the clincher for me&#8230;. Her &#8220;advertisers&#8221; are  clients that I would like to have. Her magazine is delivered directly to their offices and dropped right down on art director&#8217;s desks. </p>
<p>So in the end we have this editorial. There is a little of me in it, there is a lot of compromise and there were a lot of unpaid hours and favors. Is the fact that this magazine with this 10 page editorial will wind up directly in the hands of who I want to see my work worth it? Or will it just be another piece of junk they flip into the garbage can?</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://www.robertwrightphoto.com/writing/photography/us-vs-them/comment-page-1/#comment-2365</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Dec 2007 21:20:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robertwrightphoto.com/writing/?p=118#comment-2365</guid>
		<description>sorry about the white on black...it&#039;s cool for the photos tho...

How come no one says they like my picture? :(</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sorry about the white on black&#8230;it&#8217;s cool for the photos tho&#8230;</p>
<p>How come no one says they like my picture? <img src='http://www.robertwrightphoto.com/writing/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif' alt=':(' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: kristy</title>
		<link>http://www.robertwrightphoto.com/writing/photography/us-vs-them/comment-page-1/#comment-2362</link>
		<dc:creator>kristy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Dec 2007 19:21:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robertwrightphoto.com/writing/?p=118#comment-2362</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not in the editorial world, but your words really spoke to me, woke me up. I&#039;m struggling with some of these key ideas, and now I&#039;m inspired and encouraged. Thank you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not in the editorial world, but your words really spoke to me, woke me up. I&#8217;m struggling with some of these key ideas, and now I&#8217;m inspired and encouraged. Thank you.</p>
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		<title>By: anon</title>
		<link>http://www.robertwrightphoto.com/writing/photography/us-vs-them/comment-page-1/#comment-2359</link>
		<dc:creator>anon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Dec 2007 16:15:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robertwrightphoto.com/writing/?p=118#comment-2359</guid>
		<description>Great post.  But damn my eyes are suffering from reading the white text on black background...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post.  But damn my eyes are suffering from reading the white text on black background&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Sean Cayton</title>
		<link>http://www.robertwrightphoto.com/writing/photography/us-vs-them/comment-page-1/#comment-2358</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean Cayton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Dec 2007 16:10:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robertwrightphoto.com/writing/?p=118#comment-2358</guid>
		<description>Boy, do I remember those long lost EP days. I think I even wrote something about sailing...Your ju-jitsu is right on the  money. I would take it one step further, however. And this might be a tad depressing. But if it&#039;s visibility, momentum and interest that&#039;s the goal, the long tail kicks in here. Why not shoot eitorial stuff for free and or on trade for advertising? And why not just say no to editorial assignments that don&#039;t interest you? That&#039;s the kind of bend that has nothing to do with the publisher and everything to do with you and your goals as a photographer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Boy, do I remember those long lost EP days. I think I even wrote something about sailing&#8230;Your ju-jitsu is right on the  money. I would take it one step further, however. And this might be a tad depressing. But if it&#8217;s visibility, momentum and interest that&#8217;s the goal, the long tail kicks in here. Why not shoot eitorial stuff for free and or on trade for advertising? And why not just say no to editorial assignments that don&#8217;t interest you? That&#8217;s the kind of bend that has nothing to do with the publisher and everything to do with you and your goals as a photographer.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://www.robertwrightphoto.com/writing/photography/us-vs-them/comment-page-1/#comment-2338</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Dec 2007 05:58:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robertwrightphoto.com/writing/?p=118#comment-2338</guid>
		<description>All good points above. I am going to do a follow up post with some more ideas, a lot has been percolating in my head.

I think my goal is to get to a place where editorial can be used creatively, because I do think it is a privilege, in some way, although being an interchangeable widget is certainly not. Having the freedom to do what you want by being distinct can go a long way to getting that leverage and freedom, because if they do want you, specifically, things can get a little easier with advances, travel money, etc. But I am getting ahead of myself, I have more up my sleeve than that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All good points above. I am going to do a follow up post with some more ideas, a lot has been percolating in my head.</p>
<p>I think my goal is to get to a place where editorial can be used creatively, because I do think it is a privilege, in some way, although being an interchangeable widget is certainly not. Having the freedom to do what you want by being distinct can go a long way to getting that leverage and freedom, because if they do want you, specifically, things can get a little easier with advances, travel money, etc. But I am getting ahead of myself, I have more up my sleeve than that.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.robertwrightphoto.com/writing/photography/us-vs-them/comment-page-1/#comment-2337</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Dec 2007 02:01:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robertwrightphoto.com/writing/?p=118#comment-2337</guid>
		<description>Reality is, there are just too many photographers who will work for nothing, or way too little.  To the media giants the majority of shooters are viewed as little more than diamond miners, eminently replaceable, mostly interchangeable and sometimes will bring back a gem.  

A very few of us are talented enough, have the right contacts, are aggressive enough, and a big enough sense of entitlement to stand out and get noticed.  A trust fund or well employed spouse goes a long way to ensure longevity in this business.  

Magazines will continue to abuse those who will do the work an accept the rates, and then discard those who grow fed up because there are always another 150 shooters ready, willing and able to step in and do the work. 

The real key is to diversify your income stream as Robert mentioned.  There are many types of other clients that need good work and are willing to pay good rates to get it.  You just have to be willing to go out and look at the different types of organizations and institutions that use images.  

After 20 years of editorial and corporate work, I&#039;m now a full time employee of a university in NJ as their photographer.  It&#039;s a good gig, steady pay, benefits, retirement plan, sick days (imagine that!) and all the other hoohaa that goes with it.  Not bad really and I sometimes even have time to shoot what I like for pure pleasure.  There are other ways to make it work.  You might even find that you can be happier in the long run.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reality is, there are just too many photographers who will work for nothing, or way too little.  To the media giants the majority of shooters are viewed as little more than diamond miners, eminently replaceable, mostly interchangeable and sometimes will bring back a gem.  </p>
<p>A very few of us are talented enough, have the right contacts, are aggressive enough, and a big enough sense of entitlement to stand out and get noticed.  A trust fund or well employed spouse goes a long way to ensure longevity in this business.  </p>
<p>Magazines will continue to abuse those who will do the work an accept the rates, and then discard those who grow fed up because there are always another 150 shooters ready, willing and able to step in and do the work. </p>
<p>The real key is to diversify your income stream as Robert mentioned.  There are many types of other clients that need good work and are willing to pay good rates to get it.  You just have to be willing to go out and look at the different types of organizations and institutions that use images.  </p>
<p>After 20 years of editorial and corporate work, I&#8217;m now a full time employee of a university in NJ as their photographer.  It&#8217;s a good gig, steady pay, benefits, retirement plan, sick days (imagine that!) and all the other hoohaa that goes with it.  Not bad really and I sometimes even have time to shoot what I like for pure pleasure.  There are other ways to make it work.  You might even find that you can be happier in the long run.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin</title>
		<link>http://www.robertwrightphoto.com/writing/photography/us-vs-them/comment-page-1/#comment-2335</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2007 23:22:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robertwrightphoto.com/writing/?p=118#comment-2335</guid>
		<description>I have plenty of, out of business, or nearly out of business, photographer friends, who had to have all Profoto gear, or the EOS 1ds Mk II the instant it came out. They went in debt up to their eyeballs. 

Meanwhile, I&#039;ve always maintained that it&#039;s better to borrow, or rent anything you can&#039;t pay off in three months or so. Actually, my general feeling is, if you can&#039;t pay cash for it, you can&#039;t afford it (although, if you can get a no interest loan, do it.).

My number one rule is. Go for something other than editorial. It doesn&#039;t pay enough. Sure I do editorial jobs, if, it fits my schedule, I don&#039;t have to act as a bank, and I think I&#039;ll enjoy it. Working for most magazines is &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; a privilege, and often times the exposure gets you nothing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have plenty of, out of business, or nearly out of business, photographer friends, who had to have all Profoto gear, or the EOS 1ds Mk II the instant it came out. They went in debt up to their eyeballs. </p>
<p>Meanwhile, I&#8217;ve always maintained that it&#8217;s better to borrow, or rent anything you can&#8217;t pay off in three months or so. Actually, my general feeling is, if you can&#8217;t pay cash for it, you can&#8217;t afford it (although, if you can get a no interest loan, do it.).</p>
<p>My number one rule is. Go for something other than editorial. It doesn&#8217;t pay enough. Sure I do editorial jobs, if, it fits my schedule, I don&#8217;t have to act as a bank, and I think I&#8217;ll enjoy it. Working for most magazines is <i>not</i> a privilege, and often times the exposure gets you nothing.</p>
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		<title>By: olivier</title>
		<link>http://www.robertwrightphoto.com/writing/photography/us-vs-them/comment-page-1/#comment-2334</link>
		<dc:creator>olivier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2007 17:56:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robertwrightphoto.com/writing/?p=118#comment-2334</guid>
		<description>and BTW, one way to take on the travel, as you mentioned, is to use their travel office and everything else they can provide as a pre-requisite t taking the shoot. I also ask for advances, I know those things are usually followed by dumbfounded silences, but if they really want you, they&#039;ll do it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>and BTW, one way to take on the travel, as you mentioned, is to use their travel office and everything else they can provide as a pre-requisite t taking the shoot. I also ask for advances, I know those things are usually followed by dumbfounded silences, but if they really want you, they&#8217;ll do it.</p>
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		<title>By: olivier</title>
		<link>http://www.robertwrightphoto.com/writing/photography/us-vs-them/comment-page-1/#comment-2333</link>
		<dc:creator>olivier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2007 17:44:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robertwrightphoto.com/writing/?p=118#comment-2333</guid>
		<description>Wright on brotha...!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wright on brotha&#8230;!</p>
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