Comments on: The Farmer, The Skilled Tradesman, The Woman, Classes and Professions, The Artists, The City, The Last People and The Sartorialist: an Appreciation or, “Its the economy, Stupid.” http://www.robertwrightphoto.com/writing/photography/the-farmer-the-skilled-tradesman-the-woman-classes-and-professions-the-artists-the-city-the-last-people-and-the-sartorialist-an-appreciation-or-its-the-economy-stupid/ @ robertwrightphoto.com Sat, 06 Mar 2010 15:36:26 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: scott Rex ely http://www.robertwrightphoto.com/writing/photography/the-farmer-the-skilled-tradesman-the-woman-classes-and-professions-the-artists-the-city-the-last-people-and-the-sartorialist-an-appreciation-or-its-the-economy-stupid/comment-page-1/#comment-3120 scott Rex ely Fri, 08 Feb 2008 17:25:20 +0000 http://www.robertwrightphoto.com/writing/?p=163#comment-3120 Here is from Becker's "Art Worlds," page 4. Someone most respond to the work once it's done, have an emotional or intellectual reaction to it,'see something in it,"appreciate it. The old conundrum-if a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, did it make a sound?- can be solved by a simple definition: we are interested in the event which consists of the work being made AND appreciated; for that to happen, the activity of response and appreciation must occur. He continues same page... Another activity consists of creating and maintaining the rationale according to which all these other activities make sense and are worth doing. Rationales typically take the form, however naive, of a kind of aesthetic argument,a philosophical justification which identifies what is being made as art, as good art, and explains how art does something that needs to be done for people and society. Every social activity carries with it some such rationale, NECESSARY FOR THOSE MOMENTS WHEN OTHERS NOT ENGAGED IN IT ASK WHAT GOOD IS IT ANYWAY. From Howard S. Becker "Art Worlds" chapter one "Art Worlds and Collective Activity" He wrote that in 1984, seems pretty prescient to me. Here is from Becker’s “Art Worlds,” page 4.
Someone most respond to the work once it’s done, have an emotional or intellectual reaction to it,’see something in it,”appreciate it. The old conundrum-if a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, did it make a sound?- can be solved by a simple definition: we are interested in the event which consists of the work being made AND appreciated; for that to happen, the activity of response and appreciation must occur. He continues same page…
Another activity consists of creating and maintaining the rationale according to which all these other activities make sense and are worth doing. Rationales typically take the form, however naive, of a kind of aesthetic argument,a philosophical justification which identifies what is being made as art, as good art, and explains how art does something that needs to be done for people and society. Every social activity carries with it some such rationale, NECESSARY FOR THOSE MOMENTS WHEN OTHERS NOT ENGAGED IN IT ASK WHAT GOOD IS IT ANYWAY.
From Howard S. Becker “Art Worlds” chapter one “Art Worlds and Collective Activity”
He wrote that in 1984, seems pretty prescient to me.

]]> By: Russell http://www.robertwrightphoto.com/writing/photography/the-farmer-the-skilled-tradesman-the-woman-classes-and-professions-the-artists-the-city-the-last-people-and-the-sartorialist-an-appreciation-or-its-the-economy-stupid/comment-page-1/#comment-3108 Russell Thu, 07 Feb 2008 18:33:30 +0000 http://www.robertwrightphoto.com/writing/?p=163#comment-3108 can you go see Ms Modica's epson prints for me as well? How she goes from 8x10 platinum to pigment should be very very interesting. can you go see Ms Modica’s epson prints for me as well? How she goes from 8×10 platinum to pigment should be very very interesting.

]]> By: Robert http://www.robertwrightphoto.com/writing/photography/the-farmer-the-skilled-tradesman-the-woman-classes-and-professions-the-artists-the-city-the-last-people-and-the-sartorialist-an-appreciation-or-its-the-economy-stupid/comment-page-1/#comment-3107 Robert Thu, 07 Feb 2008 18:01:48 +0000 http://www.robertwrightphoto.com/writing/?p=163#comment-3107 @sandra: thank you so much for your perspective. You raise the question of meaning, I think what you and Amy are/were doing is fundamentally different from this. I believe the "meaning" of TS has more to do with the exchange factor involved between the blog and the comments. I was having another discussion about this last night and my friend brought up flickr in this context, which has a similar feel. At least the endless stream of comments congratulating the poster. I have never understood why anyone would bother to participate in a conversation if all they had to say was, "yeah that's great." I think it becomes about confirming the taste of the commenter against the assumed established taste of the poster. It happens all across the blog world, so many which simply point to something and say "I like this." This kind of "recommendation" is a result of the attention economy, I think it is one of the currency forms. It is not the information that is valuable, it is actually the recommendation that is valuable. FFFound and Amazon employ this transaction. When you think of physical library, a building full of information, it is actually very hard to find exactly what you are looking for. Or think you are looking for. What you end up finding are things that are related but often don't confirm or conform to your expectations. You get surprised. I think the internet is evolving in a way where you tend to find what you think you are looking for more often, in other words it tends to confirm your own views, answer your desires more closely, or substitute the desires of the most for your own. Yes there are still surprises, but I am rarely "surprised" in the way that provokes confusion. When I am surprised I usually "get it" meaning it has been through a filter already. What does this have to do with TS? Probably very little:) I'll be seeing the pictures this afternoon, so who knows... @sandra: thank you so much for your perspective. You raise the question of meaning, I think what you and Amy are/were doing is fundamentally different from this. I believe the “meaning” of TS has more to do with the exchange factor involved between the blog and the comments.

I was having another discussion about this last night and my friend brought up flickr in this context, which has a similar feel. At least the endless stream of comments congratulating the poster. I have never understood why anyone would bother to participate in a conversation if all they had to say was, “yeah that’s great.” I think it becomes about confirming the taste of the commenter against the assumed established taste of the poster.

It happens all across the blog world, so many which simply point to something and say “I like this.” This kind of “recommendation” is a result of the attention economy, I think it is one of the currency forms. It is not the information that is valuable, it is actually the recommendation that is valuable. FFFound and Amazon employ this transaction.

When you think of physical library, a building full of information, it is actually very hard to find exactly what you are looking for. Or think you are looking for. What you end up finding are things that are related but often don’t confirm or conform to your expectations. You get surprised.

I think the internet is evolving in a way where you tend to find what you think you are looking for more often, in other words it tends to confirm your own views, answer your desires more closely, or substitute the desires of the most for your own. Yes there are still surprises, but I am rarely “surprised” in the way that provokes confusion. When I am surprised I usually “get it” meaning it has been through a filter already.

What does this have to do with TS? Probably very little:) I’ll be seeing the pictures this afternoon, so who knows…

]]> By: Sandra http://www.robertwrightphoto.com/writing/photography/the-farmer-the-skilled-tradesman-the-woman-classes-and-professions-the-artists-the-city-the-last-people-and-the-sartorialist-an-appreciation-or-its-the-economy-stupid/comment-page-1/#comment-3105 Sandra Thu, 07 Feb 2008 16:17:00 +0000 http://www.robertwrightphoto.com/writing/?p=163#comment-3105 Just wanted to put my two cents in as someone working in the vein of AA and TS and whomever in the 90's in NYC while shooting for the Village Voice in the Streetstyle column that followed Amy's. I've always had a hard time categorizing what I was doing- doc., fashion, portraiture- but looking back it truly was a look at how people presented themselves in public, on the streets as opposed to the advertising Gap world as officially presented in the media. It was refreshing to document how people really do look in clothes- as opposed to the truly manufactured look fed through advertising, the media. When I first started shooting the column I realized how hard it was to be Bill Cunningham- to render/catalog the look of the day, an event, or season and make it your own somehow. I don't know if TS is making this way of working more meaningful than anyone else. AA masterfully found her way to do it. I began to see it less as a cataloging of types as a look at how fashion/the body is a form of self expression- a kind of talking back to the presented world of advertising and a personal expression that's suspect - that 's quite limited in our society as a whole. You can see some of my Streetstyle at: http://sandraleephipps.com Just wanted to put my two cents in as someone working in the vein of AA and TS and whomever in the 90’s in NYC while shooting for the Village Voice in the Streetstyle column that followed Amy’s. I’ve always had a hard time categorizing what I was doing- doc., fashion, portraiture- but looking back it truly was a look at how people presented themselves in public, on the streets as opposed to the advertising Gap world as officially presented in the media. It was refreshing to document how people really do look in clothes- as opposed to the truly manufactured look fed through advertising, the media. When I first started shooting the column I realized how hard it was to be Bill Cunningham- to render/catalog the look of the day, an event, or season and make it your own somehow. I don’t know if TS is making this way of working more meaningful than anyone else. AA masterfully found her way to do it. I began to see it less as a cataloging of types as a look at how fashion/the body is a form of self expression- a kind of talking back to the presented world of advertising and a personal expression that’s suspect – that ’s quite limited in our society as a whole. You can see some of my Streetstyle at:
http://sandraleephipps.com

]]> By: Mike http://www.robertwrightphoto.com/writing/photography/the-farmer-the-skilled-tradesman-the-woman-classes-and-professions-the-artists-the-city-the-last-people-and-the-sartorialist-an-appreciation-or-its-the-economy-stupid/comment-page-1/#comment-3103 Mike Thu, 07 Feb 2008 13:03:19 +0000 http://www.robertwrightphoto.com/writing/?p=163#comment-3103 Sure, cleaner, more disney, not as much of a counter culture, fewer homeless, more money. As a whole, TS, his subjects, and youth in general (crap, that makes me sound old) are products of a generation that has learned all too well how to get the attention that everyone on the planet seems to crave and believe they deserve these days. AA and TS are bound to have differences as they are working in totally different worlds. NYC now bears little resemblance to the NYC of the 80's. The people that TS photographs all seem as if they must have substantial trust funds to afford such finery, as AA was more drawn to the other end of the spectrum, people who found they wardrobe in the trash, or at Trash. Sure, cleaner, more disney, not as much of a counter culture, fewer homeless, more money. As a whole, TS, his subjects, and youth in general (crap, that makes me sound old) are products of a generation that has learned all too well how to get the attention that everyone on the planet seems to crave and believe they deserve these days.

AA and TS are bound to have differences as they are working in totally different worlds. NYC now bears little resemblance to the NYC of the 80’s. The people that TS photographs all seem as if they must have substantial trust funds to afford such finery, as AA was more drawn to the other end of the spectrum, people who found they wardrobe in the trash, or at Trash.

]]> By: me http://www.robertwrightphoto.com/writing/photography/the-farmer-the-skilled-tradesman-the-woman-classes-and-professions-the-artists-the-city-the-last-people-and-the-sartorialist-an-appreciation-or-its-the-economy-stupid/comment-page-1/#comment-3098 me Thu, 07 Feb 2008 03:55:52 +0000 http://www.robertwrightphoto.com/writing/?p=163#comment-3098 @mike: well, ok, bill is out. What strikes me about Amy's work is that is was nostalgic even as she made it. It was essentially backward looking even as current document. She says as much in an interview I read. Perhaps it is the black and white aspect. Looking at the few examples online, what strikes me is her subject was New York seen through the counter-culture. The Sartorialist has said that he does observe differences between NY, Paris and Milan. I think the difference for me is the innocence of The Sartorialists work compared to the rawness of Amy's work. There is no rough trade in TS. it is essentially the glitterati speaking to the glitterati. And maybe Amy was doing the same thing, but for the VV, which I'm not sure you could ever "accuse" of being Bryant Park A-list, it was much more urban-A-list and very much NY of the 80's and 90's. I guess that is the difference there, the city itself. I am reminded of the SNL intros during that time, perhaps she shot them? On the whole, it seems a lot more "street" but maybe the street is so much cleaner now, more disney? @mike: well, ok, bill is out. What strikes me about Amy’s work is that is was nostalgic even as she made it. It was essentially backward looking even as current document. She says as much in an interview I read. Perhaps it is the black and white aspect. Looking at the few examples online, what strikes me is her subject was New York seen through the counter-culture. The Sartorialist has said that he does observe differences between NY, Paris and Milan. I think the difference for me is the innocence of The Sartorialists work compared to the rawness of Amy’s work. There is no rough trade in TS. it is essentially the glitterati speaking to the glitterati. And maybe Amy was doing the same thing, but for the VV, which I’m not sure you could ever “accuse” of being Bryant Park A-list, it was much more urban-A-list and very much NY of the 80’s and 90’s. I guess that is the difference there, the city itself.
I am reminded of the SNL intros during that time, perhaps she shot them?
On the whole, it seems a lot more “street” but maybe the street is so much cleaner now, more disney?

]]> By: Mike http://www.robertwrightphoto.com/writing/photography/the-farmer-the-skilled-tradesman-the-woman-classes-and-professions-the-artists-the-city-the-last-people-and-the-sartorialist-an-appreciation-or-its-the-economy-stupid/comment-page-1/#comment-3097 Mike Thu, 07 Feb 2008 02:19:30 +0000 http://www.robertwrightphoto.com/writing/?p=163#comment-3097 No, not Bill Cunningham, he has a different style altogether. The Sartorialist and Amy Arbus are working in the same manner and style. See here: http://www.amazon.com/Street-Amy-Arbus/dp/1599620154/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202350610&sr=8-1 No, not Bill Cunningham, he has a different style altogether. The Sartorialist and Amy Arbus are working in the same manner and style. See here: http://www.amazon.com/Street-Amy-Arbus/dp/1599620154/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202350610&sr=8-1

]]> By: Tim http://www.robertwrightphoto.com/writing/photography/the-farmer-the-skilled-tradesman-the-woman-classes-and-professions-the-artists-the-city-the-last-people-and-the-sartorialist-an-appreciation-or-its-the-economy-stupid/comment-page-1/#comment-3094 Tim Wed, 06 Feb 2008 23:50:18 +0000 http://www.robertwrightphoto.com/writing/?p=163#comment-3094 Been there, done that: http://www.powerhousemuseum.com/exhibitions/fruits.asp True, no blog, just shy of the attention economy years, but it's been done. Been there, done that:
http://www.powerhousemuseum.com/exhibitions/fruits.asp

True, no blog, just shy of the attention economy years, but it’s been done.

]]> By: me http://www.robertwrightphoto.com/writing/photography/the-farmer-the-skilled-tradesman-the-woman-classes-and-professions-the-artists-the-city-the-last-people-and-the-sartorialist-an-appreciation-or-its-the-economy-stupid/comment-page-1/#comment-3091 me Wed, 06 Feb 2008 17:43:42 +0000 http://www.robertwrightphoto.com/writing/?p=163#comment-3091 @ mike: didn't you mean Diane, not Amy? I do remember Amy doing a series on characters I think so you might be right. I don't think that is the right comparison however. Perhaps Bill Cunningham is the first Sartorialist. Gotta love him. Whenever I see him, and I mean whenever, he has that Nikon over his shoulder. Even in the Times office, he walks around with it. If he has only hadda blog...coulda been a contenda... @kevin: I'll take two Warren Zevon's and call you in the morning. @ mike: didn’t you mean Diane, not Amy? I do remember Amy doing a series on characters I think so you might be right.
I don’t think that is the right comparison however. Perhaps Bill Cunningham is the first Sartorialist. Gotta love him. Whenever I see him, and I mean whenever, he has that Nikon over his shoulder. Even in the Times office, he walks around with it. If he has only hadda blog…coulda been a contenda…

@kevin: I’ll take two Warren Zevon’s and call you in the morning.

]]> By: Kevin http://www.robertwrightphoto.com/writing/photography/the-farmer-the-skilled-tradesman-the-woman-classes-and-professions-the-artists-the-city-the-last-people-and-the-sartorialist-an-appreciation-or-its-the-economy-stupid/comment-page-1/#comment-3090 Kevin Wed, 06 Feb 2008 17:33:09 +0000 http://www.robertwrightphoto.com/writing/?p=163#comment-3090 It doesn't matter. Art is a business. Can it make money is the real question that gets asked. Even established artists are pressured to reproduce the style of work that makes the galleries money. Should we be concerned about who has sustainability? I don't know. Just like the music industry, there are those whose career lasts, and those whose don't. But in the end, the labels just need to make money. A one hit wonder makes a lot more money than an artists that puts out several good, but not great selling, albums. It doesn’t matter. Art is a business. Can it make money is the real question that gets asked. Even established artists are pressured to reproduce the style of work that makes the galleries money.

Should we be concerned about who has sustainability? I don’t know. Just like the music industry, there are those whose career lasts, and those whose don’t. But in the end, the labels just need to make money. A one hit wonder makes a lot more money than an artists that puts out several good, but not great selling, albums.

]]> By: Mike http://www.robertwrightphoto.com/writing/photography/the-farmer-the-skilled-tradesman-the-woman-classes-and-professions-the-artists-the-city-the-last-people-and-the-sartorialist-an-appreciation-or-its-the-economy-stupid/comment-page-1/#comment-3084 Mike Wed, 06 Feb 2008 13:09:50 +0000 http://www.robertwrightphoto.com/writing/?p=163#comment-3084 Wasn't Amy Arbus the first sartorialist? Unfortunately she did it pre-blogosphere. Robert, another brilliant dissertation. Thank you for sifting through the noise. In the art world there is always a rush by gallery owners to find the next new thing. Today, plucking someone from a blog and putting work on the wall is a natural progression. The real question is where will that work go, how will the artist mature, and what kind of body of work will they build over a career? If you want to see where the art world is going, look at where the music business is today. Immature artists plucked from obscurity and thrust into the limelight until they implode or fade away into irrelevance as the next new thing gets paraded forward. They never seem to live up to the early hype, and how could they as they never had a chance to gain any wisdom or insight along the way. Time will tell. Wasn’t Amy Arbus the first sartorialist? Unfortunately she did it pre-blogosphere.

Robert, another brilliant dissertation. Thank you for sifting through the noise.

In the art world there is always a rush by gallery owners to find the next new thing. Today, plucking someone from a blog and putting work on the wall is a natural progression. The real question is where will that work go, how will the artist mature, and what kind of body of work will they build over a career?

If you want to see where the art world is going, look at where the music business is today. Immature artists plucked from obscurity and thrust into the limelight until they implode or fade away into irrelevance as the next new thing gets paraded forward. They never seem to live up to the early hype, and how could they as they never had a chance to gain any wisdom or insight along the way.

Time will tell.

]]> By: Russell http://www.robertwrightphoto.com/writing/photography/the-farmer-the-skilled-tradesman-the-woman-classes-and-professions-the-artists-the-city-the-last-people-and-the-sartorialist-an-appreciation-or-its-the-economy-stupid/comment-page-1/#comment-3066 Russell Tue, 05 Feb 2008 13:58:16 +0000 http://www.robertwrightphoto.com/writing/?p=163#comment-3066 Phew! I bet your glad you got that off your chest. You should get an honorary MFA from Yale for this one. Seriously, I appreciate your careful analysis of the phenom we call the Satorialist. Can't wait to read about what you think of his prints. It's hard not to feel all PT Barnumized by the gallerist himself declaring the satorialist himself better than sliced bread. I really thought you were going to finish with Lewis Caroll's rabbit hole but your velveteen rabbit works quite well even if you didn't mention the subtitle to the velveteen rabbit is "how toys become real"...I'd like to see you work in Goodnight Moon into your next post: goodnight to a bowl of mush and an old lady whispering "hush!" Phew! I bet your glad you got that off your chest. You should get an honorary MFA from Yale for this one. Seriously, I appreciate your careful analysis of the phenom we call the Satorialist. Can’t wait to read about what you think of his prints. It’s hard not to feel all PT Barnumized by the gallerist himself declaring the satorialist himself better than sliced bread.

I really thought you were going to finish with Lewis Caroll’s rabbit hole but your velveteen rabbit works quite well even if you didn’t mention the subtitle to the velveteen rabbit is “how toys become real”…I’d like to see you work in Goodnight Moon into your next post: goodnight to a bowl of mush and an old lady whispering “hush!”

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